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Postby Allstar7 » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:20 am

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Postby stickdude » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:55 am

"My name is Inigo Montoya. You cracked my Aces... prepare to die"
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Postby Allstar7 » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:07 am

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Postby k3nt » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:28 am

Play nice, people. This thread is obviously pretty close to starting a firestorm.

Yes, Canada has a foreign policy. :) And yes, it's a little different from the USA's. And yes, nobody hates Canada due to their foreign policy.

But to my mind, at least, it's really not an option for the USA to have the same foreign policy as Canada.

Let me try to balance things out a little (at least, things coming from me).

The US invaded Iraq. Result: lots of bad things, and lots of good things. Free elections (good), possible civil war (bad). Lots of dead Americans and dead Iraqis (bad), hope for change throughout the Middle East (good). Etc.

Imagine a world where there was no United States, with its overwhelming military power. Or a world where the USA pursues Canada's foreign policy -- don't get involved, don't do nation building, mostly just defend yourself and your allies, and maybe get involved a little in some humanitarian missions.

In that world, Saddam would still be in power. But probably not for much longer; his regime was failing in a number of ways. Maybe five years, maybe ten or twenty years from now -- but eventually, there's some sort of insurrection and Saddam falls.

Result? Civil war (bad), lots of dead Iraqis (bad) -- but none of the good stuff. No elections. Nobody doing what they can to promote free elections. Nobody on the ground trying to show they care, and change the Middle East for the better. In short: a situation for Iraq and the Middle East that is all-around worse than what we have now.

I actually think the goals of the administration in Iraq are pretty admirable. It's definitely worthwhile to try to get Iraqis, and people in the Middle East in general, away from Islamic fundamentalism and toward tolerance and democratic institutions.

However, I think the execution of the administration's plans has been a disaster, and the fact that they sold the war with a bunch of lies has destroyed our international credibility. But that only adds to the tragedy. If you want to invade Iraq and try to spread peace, then for God's sake DO IT, and tell the truth about why you're doing it. And don't ignore all the bad things that can happen, and don't assume that you will be greeted as liberators and the war will pay for itself. Don't assume that you can lie to the international community without repercussions.

So I'm not a hater of George Bush. I'm definitely not a hater of America or its foreign policy. But I am really, really saddened by (a) the lies and (b) the poor execution of the foreign policy. And I'm really upset by (c) the fact that they think they have to torture people, keep people in jail permanently without trial, spy on Americans, start tracing credit card payments and library book checkouts, etc.

This would be my message to the Bush administration, if anybody were listening. (About four years too late, unfortunately.)

(1) Tell the truth about why you're doing what you're doing. If you have reasons that seem admirable, the American people can be brought along. We like being the good guys.

(2) Listen to people (especially the army!) when they tell you that things can go badly. Plan for the worst-case scenario; don't assume the best.

(3) If you need more soldiers to accomplish the mission, admit that, and do whatever it takes to get them. Raise taxes if you have to! Cutting taxes is NOT more important than fighting the war propertly. If you explain the mission and how important it is, and if you do it competently, the American people will support you despite higher taxes.

(4) The enemy is really not all that dangerous, compared to enemies we have faced in the past. There's no need to freak out. Don't start torturing people, don't start detaining people without the right to a trial, don't start spying on Americans. None of it is necessary, and all of it will (a) upset Americans, and (b) upset people in foreign countries, including our allies. It's very important to have the world community believe that America is the good guys. The mission of transforming an entire culture is extremely difficult. We need all the international support we can get.
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Postby sondring » Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:40 am

I don't mean to dig this up again... but I'm going to anyway :)

This thread was originally about government surveillance and devolved into a lot more.

Here is a great article I just found about wholesale surveillance and why it's a really bad idea.

http://www.wired.com/news/columns/0,70357-0.html

The first paragraph: "In the post-9/11 world, there's much focus on connecting the dots. Many believe data mining is the crystal ball that will enable us to uncover future terrorist plots. But even in the most wildly optimistic projections, data mining isn't tenable for that purpose. We're not trading privacy for security; we're giving up privacy and getting no security in return."
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Postby Paul » Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:01 pm

I'm going to make this short.

The people who control the government are implementing policies that will take this country down the same road as Nazi Germany in the 1930'a.

The "USA Patriot Act" was written way before the Trade Center buildings were attacked.

The WTC attacks were a result of a joint venture between the Bush family, the CIA, the Saudies and the Israel's Mosad (CIA equivilant). All parties had benefits accruing for participating. The Saudies are the Bushes business partners. The Israelis need foriegn aid and also need to turn world hatred towards the Arabs. The Bushes and CIA have been in business together for 40-50 years.

The benefit for the Bush family is the that the pre-conceived wars in Afghanistan and Iraq serve the same purpose as Kosovo. Establishing a safe oil pipelin route between the middle east and the baltic area.

Follow the money in the name of GOD. Gold-Oil-Drugs. The Bush family and others over the past 100 years have been involved in all three...

There is also the issue of a long desired world dictatorship. Caesar, Alexander, Hitler are a few that have wanted to achieve this. With advancements in technology and some well-planned triggers, this may become achievable.

I believe the WTC attacks were planned in advance to go to war in Iraq and to further erode our freedom. The freedom of US citizens (and probably Europe too) need to be decimated to achieve a world dcitatorship.

What is the purpose of a world dictatorship? To keep the same group in power over what would be a defacto worldwide slave plantation. We may not be in physical chains
as much as technological and financial chains.

As far as the WTC buidlings are concerned, they went down because radio controlled demolition explosives had been placed under each floor. The fires in the upper sections were not hot enough or strong enough to bring the buildings down. If you have ever seen a building imloded, you will see the exact same thing in NY. Also, there was a building in Phildelphia in the early 90's that burned more than the WTC's for 19 hours and didn't collapse. The WTC's also faced greater wind stress on a daily basis than the airplanes exerted.

The military was coincidentally diverted on manuevers that day. A couple of F16's could could have taken out the planes. But that would have eliminated the flimsy magic trick that was presented as the reason for the buildings coming down.

Kudos to the perpetrators of the WTC attack (and I'm not referring to a few Saudi pawns in the airplanes).

I'm sure these opinions will piss off a few of you. That's okay. People in Nazi Germany in the 1930's were outspoken too. They were ridiculed and/or ignored.

I'm getting verklempt. Discuss among yourselves.
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Postby emmasdad » Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:43 pm

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Postby Allstar7 » Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:51 pm

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Postby k3nt » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:05 pm

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Postby Allstar7 » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:16 pm

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Postby Molina » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:37 pm

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Postby k3nt » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:39 pm

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Postby Allstar7 » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:44 pm

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Postby Paul » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:47 pm

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Postby Molina » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:50 pm

Depressingly, my Dad is into conspiracy theories and when I still lived with my folks I performed many bathroom procedures while browsing unsubstantiated nonse... I mean conspiracy theory books and I have NO IDEA why there is SUCH an inclination to their arguments into the readers MIND.

Seems like a quick and easy way to state assertions as FACT when they have no PROOF.

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