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Postby Zmej » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:28 am

Preflop, flop and turn plays are very marginal. I can't say that CR on flop is better than the line you chose, they are both very marginal.

Though I think that you overestimate your implied odds with preflop call, I think it's a losing call in the long run. If you had position I would be ok with it. Let say that your dream flop, 569 cames, and your opponent has AA, I highly doubt that you would be able to take more than 70BB off him there, being that deep he is unlikely to stack off easily there. Moreover your bluffing opportunities OOP are way reduced.

Ok, coming to the river. I think it's a fold and it's not even close. There is almost no playsible hands that he could be bluffing here. Someone suggested flush draw, meh, if he has balls to bluff it like that on the river, he would have raised your turn bet , being that deep. IMO the worst hand that he could do it with is 79. (Full houses are much more likely, of course.)
"#3 pencils and quadrille pads."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer; he also recommended using the back side of the pages so that the grid lines were not so dominant.

"Interesting - I use a Mac to help me design the next Cray."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when he was told that Apple Inc. had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design the next Mac.
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Postby Xaston » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:32 am

Boy, you got me confused with a man who repeats himself.
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Postby Zmej » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:47 am

"#3 pencils and quadrille pads."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer; he also recommended using the back side of the pages so that the grid lines were not so dominant.

"Interesting - I use a Mac to help me design the next Cray."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when he was told that Apple Inc. had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design the next Mac.
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Postby Xaston » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:56 am

Boy, you got me confused with a man who repeats himself.
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Postby Zmej » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:25 am

"#3 pencils and quadrille pads."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer; he also recommended using the back side of the pages so that the grid lines were not so dominant.

"Interesting - I use a Mac to help me design the next Cray."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when he was told that Apple Inc. had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design the next Mac.
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Postby Xaston » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:30 am

Boy, you got me confused with a man who repeats himself.
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Postby Zmej » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:44 am

"#3 pencils and quadrille pads."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer; he also recommended using the back side of the pages so that the grid lines were not so dominant.

"Interesting - I use a Mac to help me design the next Cray."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when he was told that Apple Inc. had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design the next Mac.
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Postby Xaston » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:56 am

Oh yea, but you were phrasing it like "I would rather raise AK than AA..." and I thought you were just off on some mental masturbation that was only vaguely related to the hand.

What you would do with AK vs. AA on the turn is quite likely to be a great deal different from what an average villain would do with them.

Since you brought up not getting all your chips in with a set here, would you be bet-folding the turn with something like 77? Check-raising and folding to a shove? Check-raising and check/folding the river if called?

It should be noted that when I talk about getting it all in on the turn with a set, I don't neccesarily mean precisely that, I include scenarios where I check-raise the turn and he flat calls, I will be shoving almost any river there and expecting it to be a value bet.

Anyone else have any thoughts on the hand? I think I'll wait till the morning Texas crowd takes a look before revealing the results (which obviously aren't completely relevant to the correct decision).

Another thing that DID cross my mind is the concept of turning a real hand (such as AJ) into a bluff on the river here. This is something that is generally left to very sophisticated players but has been brought up on 2+2 a lot lately. I think that most of the decent players I'm playing against these days are probably lurkers or posters there. Most of the time it will just get brought up in a hand as a possibility you beat (for instance in the 5/10 hand that IAmSnow posted against me). They mentioned that I could theoretically have like QJ and be turning it into a bluff. The general consensus though is that I'm not Jason Strasser and therefor not capable of it. However the number of times the idea has been posed and people have said it's unlikely lowly 2/4-5/10 players are making such plays lately has been so much, that some of the sharper players must at least be considering adding it to their arsenal (likely incorrectly due to the lack of ACTUAL discussion of how to apply the play/concept).
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Postby Zmej » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:17 am

"#3 pencils and quadrille pads."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer; he also recommended using the back side of the pages so that the grid lines were not so dominant.

"Interesting - I use a Mac to help me design the next Cray."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when he was told that Apple Inc. had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design the next Mac.
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Postby Xaston » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:24 am

Well we all know I'm too much of a payoff donkey to actually fold something like this.
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Postby T-Rod » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:32 am

I once learned from a Beantowner that very, very few have the ability to bluff you when you value bet a river and get raised. :D I think you are behind enough to fold.

Also, if the guy knows your style which is aggressive I presume, then he can afford to slowplay a little and not ignite the turn.

On a different note, I don't mean this as criticism, but explain to me how someone as good at hand reading, etc. as yourself never seems to have reads on opponents? This doesn't make sense to me. Are you being facetious or is it you 6 table, play a certain Xaston style, and just push forward regardless?
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Postby Xaston » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:36 am

I 9 table all the time and I don't use any of that funky software that plays poker for you (like gametime+ and poker AHUD).

I have some reads on regulars and if I happen to be in a hand or watching a table (rare because I pretty much always have a hand somewhere) I'll see what someone does in a certain spot, and make a note of it if it's interesting enough.
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Postby iceman5 » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:49 am

I personally wouldnt play the hand the way you did, but as played (and assuming he knows you at least a little bit), I call here. I think he has AK / AQ 50%, Air 30% and AA 20%.. I really think you have the best hand.
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Postby Zmej » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:03 am

"#3 pencils and quadrille pads."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer; he also recommended using the back side of the pages so that the grid lines were not so dominant.

"Interesting - I use a Mac to help me design the next Cray."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when he was told that Apple Inc. had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design the next Mac.
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Postby iceman5 » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:56 am

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