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River value, boat vs flush

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River value, boat vs flush

Postby shobute » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:45 am

2.5/5 NL (don't ask).

I have $525 and UTG+1 has me covered but only slightly.
Only been here a few orbits.
He has been slightly LAGgy, last orbit I raised to $25 over his limp with QQ, and he called with KTo and outdrew me for a smallish pot.

I'm dealt the [Th] [Tc] in MP.
UTG+1 open raises for $15.
I call and so does CO.

Flop comes [Ts] [9s] [2s], pot $50.
UTG+1 leads for $9 (uh huh...) and I bump it to $30.
I think he has a strong flush draw.
He calls.

Turn is the stunning [2c], pot $110.
He checks and I fire $30.
He calls.

River is the even more fabulous [3s], pot $170.
He checks and I bet $50.
He minraises to $100.

How much do I bet now?
I've got $400 left and he covers.

Criticism on other streets is encouraged.
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Postby Tokenizer » Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:32 am

IMO you are not going to get much more money from a nut flush. You underbet the pot size on every street and because of this the pot is to small to take his stack. I would have bet the same on the flop, but more like $50 or $60 on the turn and $100 or $150 on the river. Then when he pops you back he almost has to call the rest. Given what you both have I reraise to $250 on the river and hope he moves in, although I don't think he will on a paired board, you should still get a call and value from your FH.
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Postby T-Rod » Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:39 am

I push all in and here's why:

You could value bet here and reraise him a small amount. That's the textbook play. You'll make maybe another $100.

However, this guy has no problem drawing to a flush on a paired board. He has no problem playing K10o into a raised pot. Make him pay. I find its more likely that he can't get away from his hand.

Plus it improves table image.
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Postby Stelvask » Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:45 am

at a bare minimum, i'm reraising $200 more.

he likes his hand enough to check raise me on the river? F. that, you don't get to check raise me on the river. you're paying.

if you think he's a fish, push. if you think he's just LAGgy, but good, make it $300 straight. i'm fairly sure he'll call off another $200 here.

I also would have bet closer to $100 on that river. you said you put him on a flush draw, and now that's hit. say he only has the [ks], you want to get paid off. if he has somet like [ks][Td] he's going to at least call $100 on that river after chasing.

plus, if he has the [As] (which he's representing on that river) and decided to check min raise (likely considering his play in hindsight), you have a better chance of getting called when you push.

Other than that, i love the turn play - ice had some posts back in the day about this exact situatin, and it's always fun to find yourself in a spot to use it.

on the flop, with $50 in there, i think you should have raised more than $21 more. maybe $45 straight if you think he's loose enough to call. (and if you make it $45, obv. bet $45 again on the turn to keep it going).
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Postby T-Rod » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:12 pm

Here's and example of a hand where pushing makes sense. I'm doing it from memory.

Hero dealt 7[h] 7[s] in LP. Villain has K[d] 8[d] Both have full stacks.

Flop 8[s] 7[d] 3[c]. Villain bets 3/4 pot and Hero calls.

Turn 6[s]--Villain checks (probably wondering if Hero was on straight draw). Hero checks (confirming to Villain that no straight draw is there).

River 8[h]--Villain bets 3/4 pot and Hero pushes allin for another $75 or so. Villain calls.

Most people cannot get away from their hand in this type of situation.
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Postby shobute » Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:59 pm

Thanks for the replies.

The first mistake I think is that I had to bet about 50 or so on the turn.
Even that little bit makes it easier to get all-in on the river.

As for the river, I'm still confused.
I bet 50 not 100 because I wanted it to look like a block of some sort, and induce him to raise.
Since he paid on the flop and turn, he'll want more than a $50 payoff on the river.
If I bet $100 he could just flat call (realizing that it's a paired board), and I don't think $100 is satisfying to me here.

Once he minraised of course I know he hit his flush (or was playing a smaller set).
But would he call a push for $400 more?

I wasn't confident he would so I popped it to $150 more.
He called and mucked [As] [Qd].

Trodgers, I like your line with the push in the other hand.
The difference though is that you weren't taking the lead on the flop and turn, you just called him down.
So I'm not sure if the same play is applicable here.
Last edited by shobute on Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby T-Rod » Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:05 pm

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Postby k3nt » Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:06 pm

I have to assume you meant he had [As] not [Ac]. I hope!!
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Postby poker2006 » Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:19 pm

-- andyG [Ah]
I try to learn something new every day. Winning comes by itself.
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Postby rdale » Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:13 pm

I check the turn here about 50/50 to betting. There is a great chance of him slamming in some chips on a bluff or with made hand if he is at least semi-aggressive. He may even start to think his A or Q is good if they hit when you check the turn and gives less credibility if you do push.

The more passive and tight the opponent is I raise it up 3x, every one else gets an all in after check raising the river.
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