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A draw out of postion. Did I play it correctly?

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A draw out of postion. Did I play it correctly?

Postby kennyg » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:43 am

2/4NL

Preflop raiser starts hand with $263, button has $500. I have them both covered.

I'm dealt [8h][7h] in the BB.

PREFLOP
MP opponent (been playing fairly conservative and tight) raises it to $18. Button calls and I call in the BB.

FLOP $56
[9h][5d][Ts]

I check. Preflop raiser bets $30. Button thinks a while and folds.

I look and preflop raiser has $215 behind. I check-raise to $120.

Results later.

What do you think>?
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Postby JJSCOTT2 » Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:06 am

I think it's pretty perfect actually. If you are going to play the SC's OOP for a raise, you gotta know that you are going to be agressive when you flop your draw, then again, leading out here isn't correct because if you get raised, then you're the one put to the hard decision because if you call you will be OOP for the whole hand and can't very well just raise all-in at this point unless you are damn sure you know your opponent. Thus, you're only remaining option is to check-raise a decent amount, so that you put the fear of God in your opponent if he chooses to call, thus making it more likely that you could get a check behind on the turn. I think you played it as well as you could on the flop, but I still really really hate being forced to play so well due to the fact that I'm horrificly out of position. So I just muck pre-flop here a majority of the time, but as long as you can force yourself to play right every time, it looks good.
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Postby MHFlush » Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:30 am

You say your opponent is fairly conservative. Therfore, he does not raise with KQ in MP and therefore, even here where you have the ignorant end of the straight, you should have at least 8 outs.

I would have raised 90$ because it is enough to chase him away if he does not have anything. If he has anything and calls you wasted 30$ with your too high bet.

Another possibility is to raise all-in. Doyle 'variance doesn't bother me' Brunson would advocat it.

Anyway, raising is much better than calling.

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Postby T-Rod » Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:37 am

I think this is very read specific.

I like your CR amount and I like the play in general. However, I think MP has an overpair and the real question is, is he the type that can fold an overpair if his opponent is representing a set, etc. ?

Also, I'd want to know if he would slow down on the turn if he called your CR (i.e., turn aggression?). If so, you might get to a cheap showdown and draw at your OESD cheaper which makes the play nice.

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Postby Stoneburg » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:05 am

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Postby k3nt » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:08 am

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Postby ale_k300 » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:02 am

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Postby BigPhish » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:17 am

If you don't bet the turn, he probably will. Then what? Another check-raise?

Betting is expected, it's what a set would do, it helps you control pot size while you still don't really have a hand, and it might just convince him to fold.

Which book did I read that advocated always or nearly always betting after check-raising? Harrington?
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Postby rickjr82 » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:57 am

if he calls doesn't he only have 105 left on the turn, if a card that doesn't help you falls (not 8,7 or heart) you get almost no folding equity as well as poor pot odds 1:4 when you are worse than 6:1 to make your hand on the river.

if he does have an overpair there are 22 cards in deck to help you making you about about 50% to improve on the turn and if you do improve on the turn you have odds on the river

i think i agree with mh with a check/ raise to $90 i think it gives you the same folding equity on the flop and increases it slightly on the turn as well as giving you a way to get out if you aren't helped by your coinflip on the turn.

of course he could always fold on the flop...
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Postby poker2006 » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:25 pm

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Postby kennyg » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:13 pm

Results: He folded, made my life easy on the turn.

I was hoping my check-raise on the flop, if he called, he would be so confused that he'd check on the turn in position. If he did move all-in on the turn, I would have called, my odds would have been a little bit less then 5-1, but I wouldn't wanna look so weak after that play. Then again..if I'm gonna call I should just go ahead and move in for some equity, right??

yikes. I don't know anymore.

The raise to $90 and moving in on teh turn sounds like the best idea so far.
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Postby Rhound50 » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:15 pm

Kenny usually like your agressive plays but this one is a little confusing. I like the check raise but the amount you made it paints you into a corner. You said this guy is a solid conservative player I need more information, if you have played with him before does he make continuation bets when he raises?? What are his raising standards?? I think there is a good percentage of the time you are up against an overpair here, do you think he folds JJ or QQ here??? Really the reason i dont like this play is you are stuck, if he pushs all in here you have to call, the amount you raised makes it look like a draw, if he calls and you miss the turn he has $75 left and you arent going to push him off his hand. Make the raise to $80, make it look like you want a call. The problem here is the only action you get is from something that has you beat, you have to be very sure your opponant will fold a good percentage of the time to make this a +ev play.
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Postby Aisthesis » Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:59 pm

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