Hi,

For a while now I have been more willing to lay down KK.
I used to listen to the other forum and it cost me a lot, but BTP seems to have shown me the light and I think I'm saving money on KK vs AA.

Anyway, how quick are you to lay it down?

For example:

UTG with KK, new to the table.
I make it $5, folds to the button who makes it $15 and has my 60BB covered.
Against an unknown I give them the benifiet of the doubt, they probably have AA.

Do you call the $10 and see the flop?
I used to push here, but certainly not anymore.

In the game I called, flop came Q-high ragged and I check, he bet $20, I fold.

Thanks in advance for your opinions!

Well I think that fold is just weak. You have to raise that flop bet, he could easily have AQ. If he re-raises you he may have QQ or AA. But you have to pop him on that fklop to find out where you are. he could have anything.

I assume that this is .50/$1 NL? If so, that means you have $60 in your stack. Theres no way to raise the flop without pushing in.

Folding here sucks, but the fact of the matter is that at those stakes, when you raise 5BBs and get reraised, the guy almost ALWAYS has AA, KK, AK or maybe QQ.

The Q high flop gives you every reason to fold.

Alot of people just wont fold KK and thats their business, but if you are ever going to fold it, this is the time to do it.

Thanks for the replies. Yes this is NL100.

Zaccula: Like iceman said, on the flop the pot is $30 and I have $45. He bets $20. If I raise I am pushing.

I am still curious about calling preflop.
I made a comment to the raiser when I folded saying "nice AA".
He showed them and said "nice calling".

If I put him on AA, then I was paying $10 to hope for a K and expect to take his stack.
I thought it was okay, but his comment was nibbling at me.

Well if my math is right (which it is probably not) you are risking $10 more to win $65 (The $5 you have already put in, plus the $60 of his that you are implying that you will win if you call his bet, hit your set and stack him). Having said that, this play has to work once out of every 6 times to be + EV. I am not sure what the math is on hitting sets, but I don't think it is 1 out of every 6, so would that make this an - EV call? Anyone want to give me some help on my horrible attempt at explaning the odds here?

Yeah your stack is too short to allow you too try for a set under those circumstances. You should never (ever!) put in more than 10% of your or your opponents stack (whichever is smallest) if you're looking for a set. I actually go by 5% max most of the time, unless I am *sure* I'll stack him if I hit.

You have close to enough left to call for a set only, but youre not calling for a set only. You dont KNOW he has AA, and there are alot of flops that I would check raise all in and if he has AA , so be it. This flop has a Q which makes it all the more likely that you are dead.

What if you call and he has AK and checks behind on a rag flop? Im not advocating ONLY calling for a set with KK just because you got reraised preflop.

I think they're right, playing for a set only is slightly EV-.
I think I phrased my reply poorly, I didn't mean to imply I was only calling to hit my set.

Since I'm new to the table I respect that he can have AA, but I also consider KK QQ and AK possible hands.

With the Q-high flop, I'm only beating AK (or JJ and lower if he's... creative with his raises).
I think the fold was good.

A different flop or different action from him could easily let me push.
So I can say I have odds to call with this in addition to set value.

Thus, I think I'm being iceman's echo here.

IMO, if you can't buy in for the full amount at the table, don't play that level. Only having $65, you limit yourself in so many hands, like this one. There wouldn't be as much talk about calling to hit a set in this thread if you had $100 behind you. That being said, I like your fold on the flop. Folding preflop seems too weak but your lack of stack severly limits your actions. If the flop came rags, i would say check raise all in and you lose in this case but you beat nothing on the flop except AK so just fold.

I agree with ice fully as to folding the flop. A Q-high flop is about as bad as it gets in that situation.

UTG is also a very bad position for this hand, and I'd at least look for any excuse to limp with KK there (limp-call). At least on KK, my strategy is going to be: Represent a set where I have an overpair. In order to do that, I need to have limped. If I just have a bunch of limpers after me, then, oh, well, that's the way it goes. I at least know what my scare card is, and, in the limp pot, you can probably take it down, possibly also extract some money out of TP, and you can also lay it down if called for.

I don't think it's a disaster (although not what you really want) if no one raises for you. You had a big hand in a bad position, so you just play it. And it's worthless if an A flops.

I think one thing is REALLY worth emphasizing here (irrelevant to this hand, but extremely important): Any pair at all, regardless of how big, has no value whatsoever once the flop shows overcards. I see even decent players all the time continuing with their JJ on a flop with an A or K. Sure, if you're the raiser, make a continuation bet. But this bet is a bluff!!! You have no real hand on that flop. Just as an example: You have J2o in BB, and the flop comes AJ8. You wouldn't bet that out, would you? Well, you actually have a better hand there than if you are holding JJ, and the flop comes AQ8.

This is probably obvious to most, but I saw a few players hanging onto their nice QQ/JJ hands the other night on flops with overcards. Sorry to get off on such a tangent (and kind of semi-hijack), but I just thought this point was worth re-emphasizing, since it's such a common mistake. A great hand PF (including KK) may well be absolutely horrible on any given flop.