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Need more raising hands

Postby Stoneburg » Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:12 pm

Recently, my preflop raising has gone down significantly. This month it has dropped to 4.27%, from around 6% or so. Obviously this is sub optimal according to the PT stats.

Here's the problem:

1. Following Ice's lead I've started limping AA and KK almost religiously in EP. This is working out fine and will probably just become better the more I learn to play my over pair out of position post flop, when there's no raise preflop.

2. I've out-grown raising AJ and tend to limp AQ in EP now, same with AK. I used to over play these hands and I show better results (ie: smaller losses!) when I just limp them.

3. Generally raise much less in EP and only slightly more in LP than before. Every day I play I get more and more allergic to being out of position, especially when I have raised.

4. I'm assuming that 'deception' raises with SC's are -EV at microlimits since people mainly play their own cards (ie: you need to raise for value preflop).

I'm not too worried about alert players picking up my raising patterns, since the alert ones are few and far between where I play, but since 7% or so seems to be optimal, I'm thinking I may need to change this a bit. Also, since my vpip is going down as well (below 20 now) I'm a bit worried about turning into a rock.. :wink:
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Postby CipherJr » Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:43 pm

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Postby Kalle » Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:46 pm

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Postby Stoneburg » Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:50 pm

I guess the fundamental question is: What is the optimal preflop raising strategy for microstakes?

According to Excessions PT stats it should be somewhere around 7%, but that's not neccessarily the truth, it just might happen that players who raise 7% are the biggest winners for other reasons. Assuming a standard loose semi-passive microstakes NL game, what hands from what positions are raised for value?
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Postby Stoneburg » Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:53 pm

Kalle: I don't let PT control my game, but I am constantly trying to find new angles from where to question and critisise my game. This just happened to be one of them. I'm obviously not aiming for a nicer icon in PT but rather trying to figure out how to optimise a part of my game strategy.
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Postby Kalle » Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:16 pm

Sorry if my post was harsh. In my PT stats a player with pfr above 5% is aggressive and I have a nice icon in PT...

I dont think there is a optimal preflop raising strategi for any limit. 75% of the players in my PT stats with more than 1000 hands are winning players. Their PFR goes from 1.41 to 13.3 %. It really depends on what kind of player you are.
And in some situations it will be a good play to raise with 75s in CU after one limper. In others it will be a bad idea.

If I feel my table and the blinds are very loose I will only raise with big hands.
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Postby rdale » Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:18 pm

I can't say this enough... Limping AA KK up front is a great play IF you are at a particularly aggressive table, or someone is consistently min raising to your left. At your average passive prima microstakes table it is only asking for trouble and making the hand harder to play post flop.

What you are looking for a situation where you will be able to re-raise over 70% of the time. My particular favorites is there is an overly aggressive button or cutoff that has some muppet tendencies, like calling all in with KQ KJ so that I can limp re-raise all in. Limp re-raise all in is a remarkable play down low up to the medium stakes, you would be surprised how often I'm called.

The way I deal with raises is lets say one or no limpers to me from early, I'm in mid, AQ AJs just became a raiseable hand. If I'm opening out side of early I'm often raising, KQ 88-JJ also falls into that category. The tighter the table the more you can raise, the looser the more you should try to take a flop and make a hand. Pay attention to who just called your raise or re-raised and make up your mind on how to act accordingly.

There are tables that I don't bother with raising AK as they are all going to call anyways. If the A hits and is shared I'm going to get to play against a dominated hand from a muppet that can't fold any A anyways. I sometimes go as far as only raising QQ and up, three raisable hands drops my raise stat way down. There are other tables that I raise 77 ATo 98o 67s as I'm more likely to be able to raise bet any flop and take down a good pot unless someone flops a monster. Use common sense and table texture to dictate whether you should be raising more or slowing down and limping more.

Worrying about the stats is silly. There are tables that if you look at the PT stat my showdown won would be 40% how ever I'm winning big on that 40% and losing little 60% of the time. Over a week if I wind up seated with the loose passives min betting and pricing me in constantly, my stats are going to degrade and "look" bad.

PT is great, but don't become too stat oriented. It is why I can't use http://pokercharts.com for recordkeeping, it drives me nuts to see the graph, it stresses me out if i'm winning or losing, as I want to book wins more than play to win, and losing and seeing a big downward spike bothers me even more.
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Postby shoesnatcher » Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:04 pm

Thanks for the post Rdale, good advice. I agree one should not strictly rely on canned numbers to determine 'optimal play'. The frequency of raising should indeed be tied to table texture not to some predetermined amount. Raising with more hands for just the sake of raising is a losing proposition. I had also wondered if it is correct to call with AK at loose tables when in EP. Thanks for clearing that up for me as I run into this situation frequently at NL50 and NL25 tables. AQ and AK are two hands I really monitor because its so easy to start accumulating loses with them and not realize it.
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Postby Aisthesis » Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:20 am

Hmmmm... I tend to agree with several that this fixation on PT makes for some problems. It's very table-dependent, and at some tables, it can be right to never raise, at others you may want to raise quite a few hands.

I definitely agree with rd regarding limping with AA/KK in EP. The real function of this move is to get raised. So, if few pots are raised, you're better off just going ahead and making the raise yourself. And, if I have a chronic raiser to my left, I may limp with them in MP or even LP.

At least for me, here are my "normal" raising hands (again relative to the tables I'm playing): JJ-AA, AK. First, I think this creates a good balance between "made hands" and drawing hands (AK), giving my continuation bet just enough power.

99 and TT are candidates, but I think to raise those, you want more of a weak-tight field. I would really advise against the suited connector raise at micro-limits. I think it's a move that gives you some edge against players who can lay down and where you need some deception in your game.

Honestly, I really prefer coming back from the defensive PF and taking the initiative after I've seen the flop on most tables--hence, raising less on my own. TT already is likely NOT to be an overpair, but it makes a really great set.

Also, if you're getting lots of raises, limping with AK can become more attractive. Just limp-call, get in cheap, and hit your TPTK or go away.

Anyhow, the only reason I can think of to want to raise more hands than the above is that your raises aren't getting any callers (and I just refuse to raise less than 3xBB). There are really very few tables like this in my experience, particularly not at the lower limits. If it gets that bad, I'd actually start raising 72o or such periodically and then advertising it.

But in general, I'm pretty happy with raising AK and JJ-AA, with exceptions in all of these cases, depending on how the table is playing. Most tables, though, are really too loose rather than too tight.
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Postby rdale » Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:19 pm

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