You guys are amazing at this. It is unbelievable how well you all understand this game.

You forget one thing.... An all-in looks weaker to me...then a legit raise.

No matter how much you understand it, there isnt always necessarily one best way to play a hand.

Kenny, what about the rare case that this guy is a fool and has [Qd] and calls my non all in raise. Everything misses and I check...he pushes in and I fold.

That might be an extreme case, but I would fold the best hand in a monster pot.

I see both sides of the coin, but I just dont agree that the smaller raise looks stronger. Its a pot committing raise either way (at least in his eyes) so I dont think it makes a difference as far as him being more or less convinced that I have a real hand.

If you think that an allin raise here is stronger than a smaller bet than the right play is to go allin because you want to give the chump a chance to fold. Also, in Iceman's example, if you think you have the guy beat with a pair of 7's then the correct play is obviously to go allin because you're getting your money in with the best hand and a great draw. But if you think that you're behind, which will probably be the case at least 90% of the time in this spot, I would bet less because of what I said earlier. There's is no difference in what you could win, so why risk the money.

As far as it being a pot committed hand. Could someone do the correct the math on this one for me? I know you've put in a bunch of money into the pot, but what are the pot odds you need to make a call if you miss your draw. You would put in $47 (according to stapher) on the river. So if you go with my 90% chance of losing up top (which I think is too low) you have a 10% chance in your mind to win this hand on the river with a pair of 7s. Thus, the pot must be laying you the correct odds to call, which is $470. I think that's right. Since I don't really know how much was in the pot I can't really comment on whether Ice would have been pot committed or not. My main point is that you're only pot committed if the pot is laying you the right odds and in this case I would fold my $47 on the river because I would give myself something like a 2% chance of being ahead. Which would mean that the pot would have to be $2350 (50 to 1)..

wolvish

I did think there was a chance he had [Qd] since he was betting so small. Of course if he called, there would be no doubt in my mind that he was ahead because that player would never call all in with just a flush draw.

Does anyone ever make a large turn raise there (but leave themselves $45) with a set? I dont think so. They either raise smaller (maybe $80) to keep the guy in or push all in.

I've seen many people bet large but not allin bets to induce calls with monster hands because they want to get a bunch of money in but give the opponent a reason to call. For example, if you had a set on the board in this hand there would be a flush draw and straight draw out there. Thus, having a set, you would make a bet large enough that pot odds were in your favor (giving your opponent -ev on the call) but not so much that he will automatically fold. Even with his draw you want him to make the mistake of calling because you're getting correct pot odds. Thus, the set would try to induce the call by betting less than allin, which means he has a stronger hand, but betting enough to pay him off sufficiently if the draw doesn't hit. Granted, not many players are adept enough at the game to even grasp the concept of pot odds, but if he is a good player like Iceman it would seem stronger to me.

However, the point here is that if he is going to call your allin he is going to call your smaller bet. Also, if he does feel committed if he calls the smaller bet, then his chance of folding to a smaller bet are the same as to a larger bet, as long as the smaller bet isn't too small. I just think that going allin isn't really serving any purpose. If he's going to fold to an allin there is a great likelihood he's folding the smaller bet.

Knowing Stapher's style I think the smaller bet would work well in his case because of his aggressive style. His opponents know that he is going to make moves and go allin frequently, so a smaller bet looks more like a value bet. A usual allin bet will not give them much incentive to fold because they see all those gushots you catch on the draw. Crazy bastard!

Although I've never really seen Iceman play I would guess that he is aggressive (though not quite as aggerssive as Stapher), so I just say go with whichever play you feel is going to get your opponent to fold.

wolvish