Going for broke

[Cactus Jack]

[Kuso]

i like the idea. a few comments:

- the best i can tell, "going broke" means something different to poker pros than the rest of us. many of the pros take A LOT of money out of the BR and put it into other assets without the intention of it ever seeing the poker table again. if they lose their BR, they borrow from someone until they get back on their feet (see my next point). there are a few pros who really do go broke -- they lose their BR and have no assets -- but i think that most these types of big time pros don't stay at the top for a long time (i know there are a couple of famous exceptions, but you get my point).

- most of the regular big-time pros know that they can borrow enough for a BR from someone, and they know that there are games that they can beat silly to pay off that loan. as such, borrowing a BR isn't really a big deal to the player or the lender.


anyway, i guess my point is that as long as you know you can get your hands on a BR if you go bust (maybe you can), and you know that there are games that you can consistently kill (definitely seems to be the case), i would say go for it. i would personally set back $X as my back up fund, keep it out of NT, and go nuts with the rest.

what games and levels do you plan on trying?

great post.

[edited for spelling]

[Zuccala]

Well if u may I hope u can hear my .02. Whil I totally agree that in orderr to play high stakes poker, u have to have some gamble in you. BUT, why do u have to play high stakes NOW! I meann we are in a very NOW society and it looks like u are moving towards this trend.

Cactus, those big games will be there in 2 years, hell in 5 years. Why risk all the hard work you have put in so far. For what? Something you could have in a couple more years anyway. Plus, by taking ur time u will have a few moew years under ur belt. Was it not u who was talikng about HOW MUCH you have learned in the last year. Imagine what u will know in another 3....WOW. Then think how much better you will be suited for those big games.

As for Phil Ivey and the rest of the pros. They play on the edge because if they lose their money....they have 50 guys lined up to bankroll them. Money is not an object for them because they can get more whenever they want. And I am sure they had backes the whole wasy during their rise.

Do the smart thing. Dont give into temptation and earn ur shot. I am not sayin u cant do it(skill wise). I am just saying the odds are against you. You can play the best poker of ur life but if you dont have the cake to back it up, variance can eat u.

Well good luck. Thats my .02

Edit: I just read Kusos post and u have alot of the same points as I

[kennyg]

An extra year or two isn't gonna kill me. If i go broke, I lose everything. I'd rather stay sane and work up slowly, learnig the tricks of the trade while risking less money.

[Cactus Jack]

Very good points, guys, and all completely correct. Much of the "common wisdom" is correct. I'm just saying don't take it so literally that you are afraid to take some chances, for learning how to take chances and recover from losses, I believe, is also part of a poker player's education.

Yes, I have learned a lot this year. Yes, I'll be several times better next year, as long as I press the edges of the envelope. There's an old saying, "Do you have ten years' experience, or one year ten times?" It's very important to continue to build upon what you learn. The mental side of the game comes along more slowly, I believe, because we focus on the hands and the physical side, because it's quantitative and understandable. The mental side isn't measurable and doesn't appear to be easily understood. But, it's just as important, and most likely more important as one moves higher and higher in stakes. Everyone who plays the big games is a tough poker player. The ones who consistently win are the ones who are the most mentally tough. You can only get this way by willing to take big risks, winning some and losing many. The game is the same when played for nickels and dimes as it is for hundreds and thousands, but it's also very different as the stakes mean a lot more.

You simply must be able to withstand the thought you could go broke.

Finally, you all are correct about the pros borrowing from each other. Sure, they do it. But they wouldn't be able to had they not been through it over and over again. You gain the most when you have something to lose. If they hadn't lost before, they wouldn't be good enough for people to have confidence that no matter whether they win or lose again, they'll be back and their investment in the player is secure. Steel is made but putting iron under heat and pressure. The way we are advised to play the game doesn't put much pressure on us. It's designed to relieve the stress. I'm suggesting this does us less good than it would appear. No strain, not enough gain.

Again, this isn't for everyone. It's not for most. But for those of us who must, we must learn to conquer our fears. The only way to do that is to face them, and overcome losing, learn how it feels, learn it isn't the end of the world, and come back stronger than before.

CJ

[Cactus Jack]

I hope Johnny will comment. I'd love to hear what he has to say on the subject, for sure.

[Johnny Hughes]

You are as full of shit as a Christmas turkey. Poker is first a mathmatical game about real money. Percentages are eternal truths. You either grind out a bankroll slowly playing in games your bankroll fits or you do not build a bankroll at all.

I do not know how the very top pros do it or I would go and do it in Vegas. I have been at the World Series every year since l978, content to play lower level no limit side games. You see a handful of people on TV but thousands and thousands went broke. Six thousand in the main event and thousands and thousands more in satilites across the country.

Ten per cent of poker players win, given the house rake. You either are a winner or a loser. I write the numbers down in a book. You either won for a week, month, quarter, year or you did not. Either or.

I believe a winning player starting out should win their first year by picking games they can beat. Then move up. Poker is gonna be around the rest of your life. If you are in a hurry, it's like sex, you ain't doing it right.

When I was was 19 to 26, around 1960 I made a lot of money playing the top pros around West Texas. I played Moss, Doyle, Slim and that gang but mostly the professional gambers a notch below. We didn't think anything about going broke because a friend would loan or stake you to get back in the game. Periods of being broke were dumb and unanticipated and often lasted much of the summer. Looking back, I should have held on to my bankroll better and not spent myself broke.

A custom was head up challenge matches which I was always up for. I have played
Bill Smith and Treetop Straus, later World Champs, and many just as tough.

When I'd go broke, I'd open a small pot cut game but always no limit.

I graduated college at 26 and got my first job, travelling book salesman for McGraw-Hill. They paid me every month. Amazing. I did not have to wonder if I would be able to pay the rent. Didn't have to hock my pistol or pinkie diamond. Broke. The bottom dollar. Gamber's ruin. A thing of the past.

You can't play poker right without a bankroll. Golden Retreivers and Old Texas Gambers can smell your fear. You are a big underdog traisping off in pots with me.

I have seen the foks come and go from the poker rooms in downtown Vegas for thirty years. They are poker pros....awhile. It is a really tough life. Nearly everyone believes they are a better poker player than they are. Yes, you.

If I was wanting to play poker for a living, I'd move to Vegas and get a job in a casino.

Most of the winners in poker have another profession. My advice is to work until your bankroll is at least $300,000. In other words, work. Planning to go broke is a bad plan. When I went broke it was always a surprise. In the old days, the action would dry up.

Young people in their twenties can afford to try being a professional gambler if they are winning and working their way up. Most I see wouldn't have the chance of a fart in a tornado without Daddy's money.

I was iin Vegas shilling the poker at the Golden Nugget in 1960 and broke. I wrote to my Mother, from a family of gamblers, for money to get back to Texas. She didn't send any cash but she did send this brief note.

"There is only one thing worse than being a gambler. It is thinking you are one when you are not."

[Rhound50]

[Johnny Hughes]

[MVPSPORTS]

[Kuso]

[bobby]

Great post JH

You said in much more eloquent terms what I wanted to say as well...

Poker is a gamble, but so is life...I see alot of validity to to "no guts, no glory", but ONLY in a controlled situation---I "went for it" last month and lost 2 stacks at the 200 NL...Aggravating as hell, but no real harm done, the BR can handle it and I knew what I was doing...

Pick your spots CJ, and get that "goin' broke" sh** outta your head---GL

[rdale]

[MecosKing]

If you cant take a shot your never gonna get anywhere, and if you go broke youve got even less discipline than me, in which case youve got problems anyways.

[Johnny Hughes]