Well, the strange table last night has me thinking about what "would have been" the best counter. What's fairly clear is that continuation bets were out of the question, and I was too slow in realizing this.

What I really wonder is whether that doesn't also mean a rather dramatic restriction of raising hands--maybe down to just QQ-AA.

On AK, it's basically this: If you can play KJ in MP in a field of 5 limpers (betting if you hit TP), then why not AK? If you (at a 2/5 table) raise to $25 and get 2 callers but can only take down the pot when you hit, then the hand is only going to show a very marginal profit. The EV should actually be better if you have your 5 limpers and can again bet your TP. You just have to watch sideswipes more on weird possible holdings, but it's just a stronger version of AQ or KQ, which seem to work fine even against big fields.

Similarly on JJ, which is actually a bit better, because it's going to be an overpair right at 50% of the time, although 50% vs. 33% might actually make the raise a better move on JJ if you can get your 2 callers. Again assuming that the overpair will hold up, I guess JJ is still probably better EV if you raise it.

A raise to $25 with 2 callers means that you win $50 outright half the time and lose $25 the other half (plus any random limpers) for a net of $25 on the raise. Then if you have 5 limpers, you only have $25 in the pot altogether, and you're going to take that down (with greater risk of getting sideswiped) 50% of the time. The only real advantage to the limp would be on T-high flops, where KT or AT may get excited and pay you off big, but that's probably balanced by greater risk of straights, flushes, unexpected 2 pair and the like.

My first conclusion: If you can't make a continuation bet, then raise only JJ-AA.

Now, another aspect of last night's table was that there was an enormous amount of loose raising, particularly from the player on my left, who was raising any playable hand. But there were also others. In fact, the raising was so extreme that I am rather concluding that the correct counter was no to raise at all myself. Even in LP, I think there was a very good chance of still getting a raise, and I think it's generally better NOT to be the raiser yourself if that doesn't buy you any real initiative (i.e., good continuation bet prospects).

Anyhow, so much for a rather extreme suggestion for "shifting gears" on raises. When the continuation bets are working, I'm still liking the loose LP raise as "supplement" to raising AK, JJ-AA from any position (with some preference for limping on AA/KK in EP, if there's any realistic perspective of getting a raise out of the table).

If the continuation bets are working well, then raising 99 and TT as well are also possibilities, but at the moment, I really like keeping those as simple "set hands." Again, it's specific to these tables, but I am typically still getting good money in when I do set. Lately, I've just had the problem lately that my sets have been losing a lot by getting straighted or flushed (and one overset).

I hope that's clear to at least some people other than me as to some possible variations in raising strategy, depending on table texture/composition. Certainly the key to any loose raises at all is the effectiveness of the continuation bet. The better it works at one's specific table, the more some kind of loose raising policy becomes attractive (another one is certainly ice's raise on suited connectors, but, at the moment, anyway, I'm preferring a more positional variation on loose raises).

I'd be most interested in hearing other opinions on this.

You have noticed something that I did a year ago, AK can be played most profitably in a loose NL game for limp in and out of position and then calling a raise or playing an unraised pot post flop and trapping a weaker A. The only danger is not defining hands properly making it tougher even if it is cheaper to not get away from when it is beat.

Some tables, when a raise is called in four spots JJ and to a lesser extent QQ become 22. I think a long time ago ATE imparted that wisdom in the middle of a rant and these are the tables he was talking about. There are tables that I take the approach of KK being playing like QQ and just smooth calling a raise in front of me and playing a flop some of the time and reraising a serious amount other times.

These are the same tables that a limp reraise all in with AA, especially when the super loose raiser is directly to my left is the best play. I like that play with KK as well depending on how an AA works. If you take the pot down preflop and get a $100-$125 pot or so that is a great score for AA and even better to not have to deal with a board, if you get a call you can't be too displeased either.

I think you are correct in treating the lower end of the top hands as more marginal in this situation especially when you have a decent read on these opponents, however don't forget to correctly value the top two hands as very powerful with KK being a variable in strength given the opponents stack sizes and willingness to call off a stack with AQ.

Thanks - I stopped bluffing at these tables and just bet when I have something and I fold to a strong reraise.

FullTiltPoker Game #211713249: Table Cavaliers - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em -

Seat 2: AlamedaMike ($52.85)

Seat 8: MattBaker ($15.45)

AlamedaMike posts the small blind of $0.25
--judge ito-- posts the big blind of $0.50

The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AlamedaMike

bleazybob folds
jamestl17 folds
Golorp folds
HoosMoney folds
MattBaker raises to $1
OnFuknTilt folds
paylor folds
AlamedaMike calls $0.75
--judge ito-- folds

*** FLOP ***

AlamedaMike bets $2.50

MattBaker raises to $14.45, and is all in

AlamedaMike folds

Uncalled bet of $11.95 returned to MattBaker

MattBaker shows (a pair of Aces)



FullTiltPoker Game #211719661: Table Hinson - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em -

Seat 1: jamestl17 ($93.75)
Seat 5: AlamedaMike ($44.80)

Teledingo posts the small blind of $0.25
mrmolson posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to AlamedaMike

AlamedaMike raises to $4
bleazybob folds
rambozo folds
keswick33 folds
jamestl17 calls $4
--judge ito-- folds
Teledingo folds
mrmolson folds

*** FLOP ***

AlamedaMike bets $8.75
jamestl17 raises to $89.75, and is all in
AlamedaMike folds

jamestl17 shows

Good folds on both hands esp hand 1 where you had TPTK.

Thanks - I am starting to learn that it is important to save bets as well as win bets, albeit slowly and painfully.

I reviewed my hands in PT and noticed a trend. When I get called I lose about 50% of the time and when I get raised I lose almost every time.

Rule 7) Dont call allins with just Top pair Top kicker.