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LP Raises

Postby Aisthesis » Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:35 am

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Postby T-Rod » Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:49 pm

Ais,

I play 6-max and I raise a lot just for the reasons you mentioned. A10 in LP, I often raise (esp if the table is tight) and I promise you I get many AJ/AQ to fold. That's suicidal in 10-max.

I do it more for table image so I can get more action on my made hands.

It's VERY tricky to do though and you can get carried away.
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Postby Aisthesis » Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:24 pm

Well, I thought I'd give it a try online last night. Unfortunately, I played 100 hands or so, but didn't get any of the appropriate LP hands.

I really don't see why it should be suicidal at a 9-player table, though. Actually, ATo isn't one of the hands I'd raise. ATs is (that's where my current dividing line is on "MP playable"), as is AJo.

I'll have to experiment with this some more and see what it feels like. It's really only 16% raises in the last 2 positions, and I generally come off as pretty rock-ish anyway. But I do agree that you need to be a little more cautious once you "get caught" on this.

Given the positional criterion, I doubt it involves much, if any, more raising than does ice's suited connector raise, which seems to be working. This idea just emphasizes position more than it does the cards...

Ok, so if you feel like KQ is starting to re-raise you, then just back off. But that would also be a way of attacking a suited connector raise as well, right?
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Postby rdale » Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:13 pm

I pick spots to do this, but I'm a six max player. There are tables where I see good opportunity and promise in raising up all the hands you just recommended but sadly it is only about 15%-25% of total tables. The criteria for me making more plays than normal is:
Tighter players follow me and I'm not viewed as a complete yahoo yet or even better yet I'm viewed as tight player.
I have a handle on the loose passive or lag-ish players that limped.
My continuation bets on made hands seem to be working, so lets see how they work just with position.
The thing that will make me throw this a little to the wind is having a massive stack and I will drop some of the criteria in favor of action oriented plays for the sake of keeping the action hopping and give some doubt to my opponents some of the time.

If I raise [Qc] [Tc] I'm not folding to a reasonable re-raise, especially if I have position. This is obviously -EV at least immediately for this hand but I think can have other benefits later. Besides I'm running really hot with QTs this week when I'm in late with it and my timing for the raise seems almost cosmic for creating a hidden straight vs. two pair or TPTK. The other benefits are only there if you play aware opponents, which sadly right now there has usually been only one aware opponent at my table lately out of the other four opponents.

This is one area where I find smallish raises work good for me later. I know you are interested in only making larger raises, but lets say you have raised up kJs 3x made a hand and got to a showdown. When you raise your AA 3x, 99-JJ is going to be more likely to attempt a play at you preflop. You can seriously corrupt their read, as they are more likely to believe you QJs than AA when you make this bet.

An example of making one of these weak raises to set up a big reraise later:
I lead for 3x tonight playing heads up with some overs, guy comes over the top of me big I fold. He knows what I'm up too, and I don't think he held much.
I lead for 3x with KK, he makes a bigger raise against me, I come over the top all in.
I lead for 3x with AA he makes a pretty big reraise at 12x ish and I come over the top all in, he thinks for a really long time and folds. I suspect he had QQ or JJ and I really thought he might call there. I was tempted to smooth call and get it all in on the flop, but really thought I could get all the money in preflop.
I lead for 3x with QQ, he makes a moderate re-raise, I come over the top for 1/6 of his stack, he folds.

The point is, he saw me take down pots earlier with ATs KJs and QT and decided to get cute, but I had already adjusted and started to use that bet to probe a re-raise likely a bluff for 4 hands following that. I made a 4x or more raise with the cheese to fold him :) and the 3x raise to induce a reraise.

I'm not saying the re-raise was necessarily the best play in all of these and check raise all in on the flop might have been the better play. Reasons I made the play all in, is that I stacked him 2:1 and I figured to be the favorite and I was playing stacks when ever I thought I was reasonably ahead. If I'm slamming it in hard and constant eventually he is going to call as a dog, there aren't many people that have the patience to play raise, reraise, all in, fold all night long.

I don't view this semi-lag play as a bad idea, I play middle stages of tournaments (about the only time I play a full game) like this if I'm at a table that I can own mid to late position. It seems to work nicely as long as I don't try to own mid to late at a table that won't allow it. Even though it is playing with fire, your fun factor will probably go thru the roof and you are disciplined enough to not get carried away.
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Postby Aisthesis » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:03 pm

That sounds encouraging, and I'm glad you guys are making me think this through a little bit more.

In any case, let's consider a "normal" course of events. Over the course of 100 hands at a 9-player table, I have 22 hands in the last 2 positions. So, I should be making this raise on average 3 times (16% of hands) during the course of 100 hands. That's not a whole lot.

What I do find, and I'm not really sad about it in general, is that, while I don't generally have trouble getting my callers on raises, it's folded to my continuation bet probably around 75% of the time (alas, no pokertracker in B&M). That's a pretty sizeable chunk of change if it still works with this looser raise.

The real problem I see is with getting a caller on the trouble hands. Let's take KJo. Well, obviously if I missed the flop completely, the continuation bet is the end of the line. But let's say I flopped a K or J as TP and get a caller. Usually, this caller is going to be on a draw, I think. That's actually what happened the other night when I did it shorthanded on QTs. The other player missed his draw, and my pair of tens won as TP (I hit it on the river). But the real question is going to be whether or not to bet the turn when you hit a weak hand. At the moment, I think it will probably be worth it to do so if the turn is checked to you.

As I say, I also don't have any problem at all in just turning this whole strategy off if I feel like it's been discovered. Probably the biggest real payoff it will have are on sets and suited connectors that hit right. So, an intermediate version might be to keep raising pairs and suited connectors only in LP--basically, if they do hit, you WANT the pot to be big, and if they don't, well, I may have taken it down with the continuation bet anyway.

My main concern is really getting involved in overly large pots with KJo-ish type hands, but, if I get any serious bet coming at me, I still do have position and have a much easier time of laying down at minimal loss.

Anyhow, that's my case for now for making this idea worth a try. I do think it will take a while for any opponent to really catch on to a raise made only 3 times in 100 hands (and it should be about 50-50 whether one of those is a legit raising hand, if we take 3% of all hands as truly raisable).
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