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Another KK (no re-raise)

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Another KK (no re-raise)

Postby Aisthesis » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:28 am

This hand I'm really posting as an example, despite the risks of why I'm liking a flat call on KK rather than a re-raise.

Here, EP, not a very strong player, raises to $15. I suspect this was a moderately weak hand, actually. Could possibly have been as strong as JJ, but probably nothing much. I'm in MP with KK and decide to flat call. I seriously considered some kind of re-raise here since the raise was so small, but decided just to go with it.

Well, we end up with 5 players in the hand, making a $75 pot, and the flop comes something like QT6 with 2 diamonds. SB bets out $50, raiser calls, folded to me, and I make it $250 to go. All fold.

Now, I definitely run some risks on a board like that, such as QT, or straight draw with KJ (less likely in light of my KK, but still). But I'm quite convinced that I won more on the hand than I would have by re-raising. And in this case, I really wasn't sure of an appropriate re-raise quantity. If I want to make a real re-raise, then I get into somewhere around $60 at least, which KK can certainly handle.

Anyhow, the only thing I really DON'T like about refraining from a re-raise on KK is that it narrows my re-raise range to exactly one hand, namely AA. But I really see that as a problem only when opponents start laying down consistently. And I don't see them laying down JJ ever to a re-raise, nor AK for that matter (which is a little more dangerous for KK), and rarely TT.

I really think the way to go in the long run on this kind of thing is to stick to AA for the re-raise--until you start getting suspicious folds to your re-raise. Then turn up the juice and start re-raising AK, KK, possibly even QQ and JJ for a limited stretch. Of course, short-stacks even in the interim are an exception, but with full buy-ins, I really think restricting the re-raise range to AA until you feel like everybody is reading you on it (then loosening back up) is a pretty nice way to go.

I wish I could back it up with pokertracker, but I'm quite convinced that I've netted a lot more off of KK playing it this way than I would have with consistent re-raises (as I did for a very long time, and it wasn't bad--but hey, you've gotta try to keep improving, right?).
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Postby rdale » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:23 pm

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Postby T-Rod » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:22 am

Of course by just calling, you've just given great odds for anyone to play a small pocket pair for a set or play a suited connector. 5 people saw that flop and one could have easily had TT or 66 or 78s.

I prefer the reraise because I'm not trying to build a monster pot with just KK. I'd prefer to take it down there, even preflop. I don't want to see a flop with 5 people with KK.

Perhaps its just different strokes for different folks thing.
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Postby Chris-bg » Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:00 pm

What do you do if your overbet gets called? What do you think is the chance that your overpair is good here?
I'm not really sure if I like this play or not. Depends on a lot of factors I guess. I very rarely smoothcall with AA and KK anymore. I did it recently vs some very bad maniac, I was at the button and we saw the flop 2-handed and I let him bluff off his money on the flop,turn and river. I think if you want to slowplay AA/KK you just gotta have position. You just can't take the heat OOP with just a pair.
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Postby Aisthesis » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:18 am

Well, I agree fully on re-raising AA as well as the inherent problems of seeing a flop 5-way with KK. One thing about this particular hand was having position.

While my bet may seem fairly large, it's actually a slight underbet. We have a $75 pot going into the flop and then $100 more coming to me, so, when it gets to me, the pot is at $175. To give a full 2:1 back to the first bettor, I would have had to bet $275.

If someone credible re-raises me all-in, then I fold here. I do agree that the re-raise eliminates a lot of sideswipes in that kind of situation, but I just don't like re-raising to $75, then having an ace flop, feeling like I have to make a continuation bet, etc.

And as to sets and such, it's really the same situation if you were the raiser. No good player is going to lay down 66 or TT to the raise, so you're going to have to deal with sets. With this passive raise and my flat call, the additional things I potentially have to worry about on this board, I think, are hands like KJ drawing to a straight or QT with 2 pair.

I do note that while in this hand, I'd have to admit to its being a slowplay PF, I play the flop very fast, and if bettors are in front of me with an A showing, I have to lay down very quietly--but that does only happen 1/6 of the time. The other 5/6 of the time, KK turns out to be a very strong hand with quite a bit of deception value.

I'm certainly not going to claim that this is the "best" way in general to play KK (and I would, as noted, have re-raised AA), but I think it has several advantages. I did have quite good results onlin with consistent re-raising, too. But playing it slower PF is also an alternative that I'm definitely liking at the moment.
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Postby rdale » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:59 am

There are times that I think it is necessary to play KK like QQ with a smooth call. The kind of table where your reraise is going to get called by AQ AJ and the like everytime, reraising serves little purpose except inflating the pot. The same opponents that will call a reraise with those hands also will beat theirself out of a stack if they don't catch lucky when they pair one of those cards. They will often make a continuation bet on the flop when they miss as well, so with position or out of position you are in a good spot to ground and pound.

Not reraising even a larger field makes for an easy exit the times the flop is unfavorable in a game this loose and passive, while you can still maximize your wins.

If someone chronically pushes with the AQ or AJ, in wich case you're about a 3:1 favorite preflop, but can quickly become a 22:1 dog on the flop, smooth calling I like better than forced all in. Don't get me wrong I have no problem playing the kings full throttle preflop, but I'm a good enough post flop player to be taking a few flops and playing the hand out.

It reduces the luck factor a bit against the crazy opponents, as well as the tight passives that border as somewhere between a rock and a calling station. The players that push like this preflop often are not good enough to play me postflop and are really praying I fold as much as to catch.

All that said, there are many more times reraising KK is best. Re-raising you define your hand as a strong one, giving you a better chance of winning a big enough pot on the flop and reducing suck outs. It scares the heck out of JJ-22 as the pot has been raised and re-raised and a good player can get out now, again eliminating hands that can set up against you. If the player is overly aggressive with pocket pairs such as QQ-99 it may trigger an all in where you are a 4:1 favorite, again this is a mixed feeling if you are confident in your post flop skills and their tendency to heavily over play an over pair.

I play it both ways, and can see merits to each, as it really depends on the current situation as to whether or not cold calling kings is the best play.
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Postby Chris-bg » Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:19 am

If they're gonna call your raise with AQ or AJ, then you should definitely do it. Then put them all in when they hit a queen or jack on the flop instead of just betting the pot...

"It reduces the luck factor a bit against the crazy opponents, as well as the tight passives that border as somewhere between a rock and a calling station. "
How does it reduce it? If you don't improve on the flop, it actually increases it, cause you're giving them 3 free cards that can make them 2 pair or a good draw or whatever and you still have just a pair. I'd say my 70+% advantage preflop is good enough for me to shove in as many chips as I think will get called. Actually playing safe will be to just go all in.
Of course, I like to slowplay kings and aces agains crazies, but as I said I prefer to be on the button.
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