I was working on my Party bonus the other night when the following had came up. Let me just say that the last few weeks my pocket Ks have been getting murdered and I've become a little "gun shy" after the flop when I get pushed back at.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with , .
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) , , (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, Button folds, BB raises, Hero folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) (2 players)
BB bets, MP2 calls.

River: (8.75 BB) (2 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

BB shows two pair, eights and fives.

MP2 doesn't show two pair, sevens and fours.

Was this a weak play on my part to fold to the check raise on the flop? With 3 callers to my preflop bet, that was a terrible card in my mind. When I bet out and got called and then check raised I took that as a sign that at least one of them has me beat. Now I know that the check raise could mean more than he's got an Ace or set. He could be making this move with something like a 67 and trying to cause the table to freeze up and give him a cheap draw at his open-ended. That is a play I'll use myself occasionally but not from such a bad position.

Turns out I was correct at that point and was in fact behind, but should I always tuck tail and run in this scenario? If I don't fold then ultimately I would go on to win this hand but I'm really just chasing one of my Kings because the betting has told me I'm beat. Obviously, if no Ace hits then that check raise isn't going to make me give up the hand at that point with a ragged board like that.

Thoughts? Comments? Lay it on me. I'm really looking to improve my decisions in my LLH play. Thanks in advance.

Hrm... I can definitely empathize with burned KKs... I've had bad runs with KK, as well as AA, and losing with either of those hands is always a blow to one's confidence, I think.

Nevertheless, I think there were two options for you on the flop - you could have three-bet it, or you could have flat-called, if you were scared of the ace. What I would do in this situation would be pretty read-dependent, but in either situation, I'd find it really difficult to throw away my kings to a check-raise unless I was positive that BB had already outplayed me. The thing is that pre-flop action was pretty weak all-around. You have two cold-callers pre-flop, and BB calls an extra bet with the garbage he had? That seems very fishy to me. So with this group, I think I would have been more apt to actually re-raise BB, if I thought he was weak enough. Barring a decent read on any of these guys, I would have called the extra bet on the flop, and check-called it down, unless there was any significant action on the later streets.

To be honest, with the way pre-flop was played by the other guys, the best hand I could give any credit for would be two pair anyway - with that in mind, then, I've really got quite a few outs at a decent redraw, if I am behind on the flop. I'm only a sure-fire loser if I've put someone on an ace...

I dunno - I'd like to hear what the others have to say about this hand. But I don't think I would have been able to fold KK to that check-raise. Maybe this is me playing it weakly...

Musicman,

Thanks for the reply.

One of my main problems is players consistently cold call with any pair and any Ace at the low levels. I have a very difficult time figuring out if I'm truly beaten or not. In similar situations I've called the check-raise and then went into check call mode and consistently been shown an Ace at the river. So I'm wondering if perhaps I'd save money in the long run if I lay KK down at the flop with an Ace on the board, multiple opponents, and another player showing strength.

If you reraise in this spot, what is your reaction to a call? Are you firing out on the turn? What if he 4 bets? Are you still calling or are you now done with the hand?

I have given up on 3 betting that flop unless I have such a great read on the players. The only draw you are beating is 67 as there are no other draws. What could you possibly be beating after a caller and a check raise unless its by a true moron? Even if its against a moron, you can find much better spots than this to get his money.

Are you willing to pay another 2.5 big bets to see if you are right or if you can get 2 outs? If he had 67, the turn gives him the straight so what would you be beating then? I would just fold to the check raise and move on.

Leon,

If I have KK on an ace-high flop, and I get raised or check-raised, I'm gonna drop my hand the majority of the time. In the hand you played, look at it from the BB's perspective; you were the preflop raiser, so that ace is pretty likely to have hit you. Can you see him check-raising your bet (along with MP's call) with anything that your kings can beat? Pretty doubtful in my opinion. It would take a pretty rare player to check-raise you with something like middle pair in this situation. And if he has an ace with a shit kicker, a 3-bet might slow him down, but he's not gonna drop it

It always sucks to see that ace on the flop when you have KK, but if someone raises or check-raises you, you usually need a pretty good reason not to drop your hand on the spot. Good fold.

-TW

Another thing is to look at your opponent's PFA. If it's 1.5 or less, this is a pretty easy fold.

Hey Big LEon--

Leme first say welcome to the board! GOod to have another limit holdem player. Lots of NL here, a game which, because of my fear and ignorance of it, i hate and despise.

Anyway, I dont have a problem with your fold on this hand. In a 3 handed pot (4 handed PF) , with 2 cold callers and the BB, with the BB CRing the field, its pretty darn likely that your kings are beat.

It is very unlikely that the BB is CRing the field with a draw like a 67, because first off, with three people in, hes not getting value to do so, and secondly, hes out of position, so the play is not as likely to but him a card. Lastly, you raised PF, so the default hand to put you on is a big ace, which means that he has to worry about a 3 bet, which might very well chase out the third guy, which would mean he's DEFINITELY not getting any value out of a raise.

So IMHO, i dont think you can put an out of position guy checkraiseing the field on a draw, except in the unlikely event that hes got something like an open-ended/flush draw, in which case he's got odds to put as much money in on the flop as he basically can. In fact its unlikely that he even has a weak ace, because a weak ace usually check/calls here, or leads out to see where hes at-- id have in on a strong ace or better-- you gotta respect the field CR.

The only thing different that i wouldve done in the hand is that i wouldve called that one bet.

1st, your getting 14:1 to hit that king. Now the king is only going to come once in 22 or so, but assuming one of your opponents has a decent hand, youve got some implied odds there, etc. etc.

Still, your not getting odds to call there, but also i think it looks too weak tight to fold outright...WHen i see someone that bet/folds on the flop, i tend to think they are a weak player, and i am alot more likely to try and pushem around, and alot less likely to give them action when they DO come to life. Doing this is very bad for image, IMHO...Lastly, its always possible that he was messing around with some sort of draw, or shitty pair, and will check the turn, or even that he has a big hand and is going for a turn CR, in which case youll get another chance to catch your K.

IN any case, i think the laydown was totally fine...the fact that id have made the -EV move of peeling on off is pretty much a matter of taste / opinion, since with everything factored in, it very well might be more of a sideways EV move. I like to have a loose image though...

Big Leon,

I think you are just questioning yourself because you would have gotten runner runner to win. However, even after seeing those 4's, the only hands you were beating that could possibly play that was was 85 which is what he had. Every other hand would still beat you including 67 or any ragged Ace.