So I know I flubbed this one pretty bad - what should I put him on though?

I'm in MP with ATo and open raise. This table is pretty tight, so when it folds to the BB and the BB calls, I know that I probably have the best hand. He could call with a variety of hands.

The flop is JQQ and he checks, I bet and he calls.

The turn is the - putting a second heart out and now he leads into me. What's your action and why?

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Personally I was so confused about his play that it didn't occur to me that he was doing a stop and go. I raised him, he reraised me and I called him down. I hit an ace on the river and called his river bet only to be shown KQ.

Of course a hand containing a queen is a possibility here, but in my opinion, so are a lot of other hands. Maybe this is part of the reason why my stats at $2/$4 HE are in the toilet...

Star,

Even though he did wind up having what he represented, I find that this stop'n'go sorta thing usually means a weak made hand (i.e. pair of jacks, shit kicker in this case), a draw, or a bluff...in that order. Of course, it depends on the player, but I think the vast majority is not going to play trip queens this way.

I don't think raising is a terrible play here, because there's still a decent chance you're ahead...and you also might get him to drop a jack or a lower pair (though many players at this level will still call down)...but it's also dengerous because it allows him to 3-bet in the situations where he does have the queen.

Personally, I think I'd call down here, though I'm not sure if that's a good play either.

EDIT : I should add that I don't think there's anything wrong with folding to the turn bet, either. As I said, I'd call down, but I think it's actually pretty marginal either way.

-TW

Hum! Interesting way he played that hand. I am a very strong beleiver in playing trips fast, or at least in some creative way that makes people think you dont have them, instead of the same tired old, completely uncreative check, call, check, raise thing that people seem to think extracts max value. I will usually CR th flop with trips and hope to get 3 bet, at which time i will either cap or else go for the turn CR--and if i want to bluff at paired board, THEN i will do the stupid check/call/check/raise thing...

Anyways i digress. I think about 75% of the time id have given him credit for at least a 3 and either peeled one thinking i had 12 outs, or else just mucked. Maybe thats all the SH play talkin, because im used to situations where if he does have a 3, you can raise your ass off all you want and hess not mucking it unless the river comes a jack maybe and he now has a six high.

That turn bet sure is an anomoly though, id almost call it down just to see what hes upto, which im thinking is probly a -EV move...

Could someone please explain the opponents thinking for the stop and go?
I just dont see much benefit in the play.
If I am the opponent here I would have either bet out or cr that flop or flat call then cr the turn.

Whatup striker?

Well, there are two factors at work here probably. First, there is 'why it worked' and secondly there is 'why he did it'

Why it worked is simply because its such a peculiar play that, like TW said, it looks suspicious. It looks suspicious because it is ostensibly the play that is LEAST likely to extract value out of your hand. If you CR the flop, then at least you are going to trap your opponent for an extra bet. If you CR the turn, obv. you are gettin alot more, and if you miss your turn CR, then you can bet the river, and an acehigh will very likely call here if the river looks bricky, and hey at least you made another BB. The only reasonable rationale for making this play is that you have a VERY weak hand (i.e. a 3) that you nonetheless think is good, but that is too weak to CR with because a check behind is too risky. So, you bet...

No non paired hand should call that turn bet if they credit you with a pair, because no matter WHAT they have, in a pot that small, and for a big bet, there cant possibly be odds to chase--so they will muck.

Thats why trips played like this is so strange, because this reeks of a VERY weak hand,
when in fact, he had a monster.

Now, why do i think he did this? Well, as formidable of an opponent as im shure he was (cough) I doubt he figured 'im going to represent a really weak hand / bluff, and hope he bluff raises me so i can three bet his ass!'. What probly happened is that he was at a loss for how to extract max value out of this hand, and right after crapping his pants but before having heart palpitations, he decided the thought of a check behind was just too horribl to bear---so because he didnt know what else to do, he bet and hoped for a call. And it turned out that he stumbled into the optimal play there, eh, because ole star never saw it coming....

Dontcha love how even when people make what might be good plays, i always find a reason to accuse them of muppetry all the same?

On a purely semantic note, I'm not sure I consider this a stop n go, since he never really "stopped."

Are you suggesting we change the name to the ol' "go, but at an unexpected time" play?

-TW

Ok.. Here's my take.

You open raise from MP with ATo.

Flop comes JQQ. He checks, you bet, he calls.

If he has something (Qx (which he did), or Jebus-forbid QJ) and he bets the flop, he may chase you out if you think you're in trouble. His check says, "I don't have anything, but I want to see the next card for a small bet." That's what he WANTS you to think. The on the turn puts a flush draw on the board. Follow my logic. He's thinking of what you would raise with, and what could put him in trouble:

"Underpair, AK, AT, other suited paint?"

The second heart (I assume the flop was a rainbow) could give you a flush draw with Axs (hearts), so his trip queens become vulnerable. He was slowplaying them, hoping for a crappy turn card. Your raise, his reraise and your call just fluffed the pot for him. He knew he had the best hand when you raised him, but he wanted to make you pay to see the river and your possible flush. When you didn't re-raise him, he figured you didn't have AQ, so the ace on the river basically left him thinking that only AA has him beat, especially since you won't open raise from MP with KT. He was worried about the straight, the flush, and when neither came, he knew he had you.

Basically, he slowplayed his set. The heart on the turn scared the hell out of him, and woke him up--plus he knew he couldn't make up a bet on the river, especially letting you draw to either a straight or a flush.